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Post by Chris (Former Red Sox GM) on Jan 20, 2017 8:28:27 GMT -5
Here’s v2: Cutting down the $$ paid on Kluber from the previous deal, removing the pick, and sending another prospect back to Cleveland in the deal.
Red Sox get
Corey Kluber with $10 payed for 2017 and 2018
Indians get:
Leody Tavares
Yusneil Diaz
Colin Moran
Rob Kaminsky
Red Sox Approve
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Post by Guardians GM (Thomas) on Jan 20, 2017 11:11:36 GMT -5
Indians accept. I liked the last deal, and this one favors me even more. I get an extra $5M, don't lose the draft pick, and get an extra prospect who I like. I love this deal.
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Post by Brewers GM (Tim) on Jan 20, 2017 11:16:16 GMT -5
Approve
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Post by D'backs GM (Kyle) on Jan 20, 2017 11:24:49 GMT -5
Contract figures?
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Post by Matt (Former Padres GM) on Jan 20, 2017 12:03:42 GMT -5
Approve
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Post by Dave (Former Nationals GM) on Jan 20, 2017 12:05:42 GMT -5
Approve
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Post by Marlins GM (Travis) on Jan 20, 2017 13:09:37 GMT -5
Veto. Again, 3 OK prospects, plus Diaz, whom I see most value, don't amount to an ace that scored 572 points last year. No top 100 prospects, no draft picks. I don't think this is even close.
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Post by Astros GM (Will) on Jan 20, 2017 13:13:37 GMT -5
Approve again - Taveras is a Top 100 prospect plus 3 decent prospects who all have a decent shot of seeing MLB action in their careers. The $20M increases Indians budget by 500% this year. Red Sox get to use their cap space and prospect depth to win now.
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Post by Guardians GM (Thomas) on Jan 20, 2017 13:28:19 GMT -5
Indians will cover $10M of the $30M on the contract for '17 and '18. Red Sox will pay $20M. |
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Post by Marlins GM (Travis) on Jan 20, 2017 13:54:49 GMT -5
I'm sorry, but I have to pipe up again. 2 of prospects batted under .300 in Single A last year, so there's no way to know if they'll ever see MLB action. Moran is like a Uribe. Will have a few good years, but nothing special. I'm basing that on .259 average in triple A. Sure, little bit of pop with 10 home runs, but not enough to write in as a good return. And Kaminsky has had a solid few years. But we're talking about a top 5 point guy at SP position. For 2 prospects that batted under .300 in single A, and OK guy in Moran, and Kaminsky? I'd give up my first round pick last year and this year, plus a slew of mediocre prospects (if it was just a prospect deal and no MLB players). Cy young winner, over 200ks last 3 years, top 5 point guy last 3 years at pitcher. I get it, Indians are trying to free up CAP. But I don't see how anyone can approve this, yet alone 4 approves. I apologize if I've offended anyone, I'm just giving a much more detailed description.
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Post by Astros GM (Will) on Jan 20, 2017 14:25:35 GMT -5
I don't think that arguing you could have made a better offer is grounds for vetoing a deal.
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Post by Royals GM (Bill) on Jan 20, 2017 14:47:05 GMT -5
Veto. This is still one of the best SP in the game going for 3 marginal prospects with utility/RP upside and a 17 year old that hasn't even reached full season ball. Paying part of Kluber's salary only makes it worse. Should be getting blue chip prospects for an ace.
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Post by Rockies GM (Alex) on Jan 20, 2017 15:02:44 GMT -5
I'm going to have to side with Bill and Travis on this one. I think Cleveland can get a lot more for an elite pitcher like Kluber, especially if he's willing to eat a lot of salary for multiple years! Appreciate the effort to rework it, would like to see more going to the Indians, kluber is a top talent, and should be worth top minor league talent/picks, especially with cap coverage. (4-3).
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Post by Marlins GM (Travis) on Jan 20, 2017 15:03:53 GMT -5
I don't think that arguing you could have made a better offer is grounds for vetoing a deal. I was making a point that better prospects should've been in deal, my argument is Kluber is top 5 point guy last 3 years. Enough said with that alone. |
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Post by Das (Former Giants GM) on Jan 20, 2017 16:38:39 GMT -5
Allow. (5-3) The Indians must be pretty excited about the prospects they are getting. The Red Sox will still be paying $20M for next 2 seasons, which is discounted, but it's still $20M. I think that the Indians could do better, but not enough so that I would veto this deal, maybe look at what Chris Sale went for in real life, if a 3rd re-work comes about?
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Post by Mariners GM (Phil) on Jan 20, 2017 17:40:36 GMT -5
i'm thinking Kluber is worth a bit more than king Felix so probably returns a little better than what i got for him would be a good target for a trade like this
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Post by Braves GM (Jared) on Jan 20, 2017 18:04:26 GMT -5
Approve
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Post by Mariners GM (Phil) on Jan 20, 2017 20:01:45 GMT -5
since i approved the last one i don't think its fair to flip flop so i'll stay on the approval side
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Post by Phillies GM (Zach) on Jan 20, 2017 20:12:47 GMT -5
Veto - for all reasons said above. Kluber is an ace, huge points getter, worth more than these prospects.
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Post by Astros GM (Will) on Jan 20, 2017 20:34:42 GMT -5
Since this just got the 4th veto, I'm going to argue again in favor of this trade - Kluber is projected for 530 points this year according to Steamer. With $20M, the Indians would then be in the market to grab 2 free agent pitchers out of this group:
Mike Leake
Ubaldo Jimenez
R.A. Dickey
Christian Friedrich
Jason Hammel
Jhoulys Chacin
Phil Hughes
Josh Tomlin
Miguel Gonzalez
Charlie Morton
All the guys listed above are projected for 250-370 points. Any two of them would match Kluber's total output, and all are currently being bid at less than $10M each. Quantity vs. Quality doesn't really apply when SP roster positions are as flexible as they are in this league.
On top of being able to diversify his assets a little more (he doesn't have to buy just starting pitching), he also gains tons of years of control with the incoming prospects, one of which is going to be a Top 100 prospect once lists come out (Taveras), which is pretty important for the deal.
I understand that Kluber is an ace, but that title is ultimately meaningless - it's the points that matter. This trade possibly makes the Indians better in the near term by allowing them to pursue other upgrades to his team, as well as getting a decent prospect haul so it is really surprising to see this version of the trade fail.
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Post by Astros GM (Will) on Jan 20, 2017 20:38:25 GMT -5
i'm thinking Kluber is worth a bit more than king Felix so probably returns a little better than what i got for him would be a good target for a trade like this The Mariners covered 75% of Felix's contract (as opposed to 33% of Kluber's) which basically equates to buying more prospects - I think it's fair to see an equitable difference in prospect exchange between these two deals. |
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Post by Royals GM (Bill) on Jan 20, 2017 23:15:21 GMT -5
The only thing about the money saving angle is that Kluber should bring good, affordable pitching and blue chip prospects rather than money savings to be used on washed up short term stiffs.
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Post by Marlins GM (Travis) on Jan 21, 2017 1:05:55 GMT -5
Will, you're placing way too much value on money. Even if they free up money, there's Jays, Mariners, and a slew of other teams that can easily outbid 20mil in CAP. Plus, a few of pitchers you named are restricted, so there's no guarantee a winning bid will win. You're bidding against 29 other teams, odds aren't in your favor. So you should be getting prospects that are as close to a sure thing as you can get. They should be getting CAP relief, plus quality prospects. There's no big leaguers in this deal. That jacks up quality of prospects required to make this deal work. And quality isn't there at all.
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Post by Astros GM (Will) on Jan 21, 2017 1:14:07 GMT -5
Will, you're placing way too much value on money. Even if they free up money, there's Jays, Mariners, and a slew of other teams that can easily outbid 20mil in CAP. Plus, a few of pitchers you named are restricted, so there's no guarantee a winning bid will win. You're bidding against 29 other teams, odds aren't in your favor. So you should be getting prospects that are as close to a sure thing as you can get. They should be getting CAP relief, plus quality prospects. There's no big leaguers in this deal. That jacks up quality of prospects required to make this deal work. And quality isn't there at all. I was pointing out the $/point value in free agency to try and reason what that was worth in the deal. Another option would be to go out and take on salary in different trades, which the same $/point value is still useful. Ultimately, the Indians didn't really help sell the deal for themselves because they did not offer us their perspective on the prospects (or the budget) they were trying to attain. |
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Post by Yankees GM (Jerry) on Jan 21, 2017 10:40:09 GMT -5
Veto
Kluber for 4 very young prospects and still have to pay some salary, I can't do it.
I can't find any list where Tavares is ranked as a top 100 prospect and Diaz for the Dodgers will be very lucky if he ever sniffs the ML
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Post by Matt (Former Padres GM) on Jan 21, 2017 17:44:35 GMT -5
I'm surprised this is a veto. If 2 of these guys hit and one is average and the other one slightly above average everyday players this deal is definitely worth it. Two 400 point players for let's say 5 years each out weighs one player at 600 points for 2 years. Could the Indians get a better top end prospect....probably, but he's got 4 chances to hit with these prospects and that's why I can't believe this is a veto. This doesn't change the course of the league at all.
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Post by Royals GM (Bill) on Jan 21, 2017 19:23:38 GMT -5
This is a veto because one team is moving a proven Cy Young caliber talent for a group of prospects that have part time upside at best. Aces are few and far between and to give one up without any return absolutely impacts the league. Give any good team in a 30 team dynasty a top of the rotation pitcher while giving up nothing of value absolutely skews the league. Which is why it was voted down.
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Post by Marlins GM (Travis) on Jan 21, 2017 19:44:21 GMT -5
I'm surprised this is a veto. If 2 of these guys hit and one is average and the other one slightly above average everyday players this deal is definitely worth it. Two 400 point players for let's say 5 years each out weighs one player at 600 points for 2 years. Could the Indians get a better top end prospect....probably, but he's got 4 chances to hit with these prospects and that's why I can't believe this is a veto. This doesn't change the course of the league at all. Look at Mariners Indians trade on second page of official trades. For Felix (who doesn't score as well as Kluber so Kluber is slightly better), the Indians got 6 prospects, plus almost 10mil of CAP. Not to mention, 2 first round picks as well. And of 6 prospects, I could argue any one of them is better than anyone in this trade (Not big on Jose Trevino or Jairo Beras, but could argue they're better than 2 single A players in this deal). So that's 8 prospects, and some CAP relief. And Kluber is even better, and they're trying to deal him with only 4 prospects involved. This deal isn't even close to other one. |
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Post by Matt (Former Padres GM) on Jan 21, 2017 20:47:06 GMT -5
I would argue the Indians gave up too much in the deal with the Mariners so comparing the 2 isn't a good middle ground. Anyway it got vetoed and the Indians have another shot at making a deal.
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Post by Rockies GM (Alex) on Jan 22, 2017 15:35:47 GMT -5
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